Click on the image below for more details, In the extreme long range shooting community, there isnt an official standard for records. Not long after helping their Nomad Rifleman client break the Wyoming record, Scott, Shepard, and a group of their friends who also share a passion for long range shooting decided to attempt to set a new world record extreme-long-range shot; the record at that time was four miles. Unnamed (australia), 2021, 3,079 yards; Web 22 rows harrison killed the two taliban machine gunners with shots that took the 8.59 mm (0.338 inch) rounds almost five seconds to hit their targets, which were 900 m (980 yd). Of course, the HDR is a top . 25-06. We learned that with our 422 grain bullet landing at 689 feet per second, there was rarely enough dust signature to see where the impact point was. Our decades of combined experience have been pooled together to bring you this list of 7 incredible long-range rifle choices and 1 that you should really avoid. "Murdaugh Family Murders," a deep dive into the trial, featuring new interviews, airs Friday at 9 ET/8 CT on ABC's "20/20.". Those who cant teach. Their specialty is helping beginners advance quickly to great heights distances while having a blast and tolerating bad dad jokes. These types of shots are just for fun, Humphries explained. To test the difference between the two shooting rests, I shot prone toward two separate targets at 300 yards and then compared the points of impact. "Without taking the stand, he was toast.". Furthermore, neither Scott nor Shepard claim to be great shots. Alex Murdaugh has arrived at the Kirkland Reception and Evaluation Center in Columbia, South Carolina, where he will be assessed before being assigned to a maximum-security prison, the South Carolina Department of Corrections said Friday evening. Savage Model 10 BA Stealth 8. Long-rangeis 300-1200 yards. Isis sniper military technology world gun dead at 3,871 yards: Web 22 rows harrison killed the two taliban machine gunners with shots that took the 8.59 mm (0.338 inch) rounds almost five seconds to hit their targets, which were 900 m (980 yd). Alex Murdaugh, 54, was found guilty Thursday on all charges -- two counts of murder and two counts of possession of a weapon in the commitment of a violent crime. This is the rifle that set the new record for the longest hit on a targeta 4.4 mile shot using a highly customized .416 Barrett. The CVA Accura LR has been a customer favorite for many years and is already an excellent long-range muzzleloader, but CVA decided to up the ante in 2021 by introducing the Accura LR-X muzzleloader. Their custom-built rifle, with parts coming in from all over the world, took over a year to build, and testing their systems, including optics, wind readers, and custom steel bunkers, took months more. They communicated with one another to triangulate the hit and relayed that information to the team at the gun. Harpootlian said the prosecution focused on Alex Murdaugh's character, casting him as a thief and a liar. Then came the bonus plates at 3,592 and 4,137. Extreme long ranges. The .270 Winchester's recommended target range is from 100 to 500 yards. (If not email, Zoom video preferred). Custom built long-range rifle which shot the new world record on September 13, 2022. This monumental task paid off yesterday with overwhelming satisfaction when we heard crackle over the radio: We have our first target hit confirmed. Phillips, of course, is no stranger toshooting at extreme distances. They began planning the project in late 2020. Cheney was using a GA Precision custom chambered in . That includes various kinds of long guns, including AR-15-style semi-automatic rifles involved in many deadly mass shootings over the past . Scott and Shepard both have a passion for shooting rifles at long ranges. I had my rifle dialed in for the hunt but didnt have the time to set my bipod up, so I took the shot off my pack and missed low. If you want an outstanding long range muzzleloader, then you really need to consider the CVA Paramount. Here is a complete timeline of the trial. Using this system, they walked the shooter (whose name is being kept private at his request) into the target. I had to zoom out to about 17x in order to do that, putting the 11-mil mark on my Mil-C reticle right at the bottom of the image. Shepard was at the shooting site with Scott and Winston, handling radio communications with spotters, recording impact locations, and offering advice. They shot in the morning when it was relatively calm, but every time the wind velocity changed even a single mile-per-hour, the team had to adjust their point of aim to 26 feet. Shepard learned to weld and built prototype after prototype until they found the correct design. Snow | Published Sep 20, 2022 4:04 PM EDT Guns My squad started on targets five and six (T5 and T6) at 2,073 and 2,203 yards. The minimal difference Getting a new gun zeroed in or on target is not as complicated as some folks might believe. Special thanks to Frank Green from Bartlien Barrels. Photo of the 4 types of .22 long rifle ammunition used for precision testing on 2 March 2021 in western Montana, USA. Sweet, I'll check it out thanks! 6. Congratulations! "Next, the SCDC inmate classification system will follow the same process it follows for all inmates: evaluate the results of tests, assessments and screenings administered to him, taking into account his crime and sentence, and use all of this information to assign the inmate a specific custody level and prison," the statement continued. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. Read Next: Building a 2,000-yard Rifle in .300 PRC. The previous record of 4 miles set in 2020 was defeated by a 4.4-mile target hit in the high desert of western Wyoming. For 2021, the B-14R, Bergara's full-sized precision trainer, has added .17 HMR and .22 WMR chamberings, in addition to its original .22 LR models. The .416s muzzle velocity was 3,300 fps and by the time the bullets reached the target (which took more than 24.5 seconds), they had dropped to 689 fps. MasterPiece Arms BA Lite PCR 5. Best Long-Range Rifle Reviews Our Top Pick - Ruger Precision Photo Author generated: Ruger Precision 6.5 Creedmoor Ruger Precision Click Here For Best Price Harpootlian said he wouldn't change anything about how the defense presented its case. Stay in the know. Nomad Rifleman Team Sets New World Record for Extreme Long Range Rifle Shot. Scott Austin, who is the brains behind the rifle/ammo build and coaching the shooter, had learned much from months of testing based on number crunching with various ballistics programs, and was able to guide Winston in closer and closer to the target. While their assumption may be true for a shot inside 100 yards, its far from accurate when shooting at steel more than 3 miles away. The intake process will include "medical tests, mental health and education assessments," the agency said in a statement. The targets dimensions (120 inches by 92 inches) made it 1.54 MOA wide and 1.18 MOA tall at 4.4 miles. Alex Murdaugh faces about 100 other charges for allegations ranging from money laundering to staging his own death so his surviving son could cash in on his $10 million life insurance policy. There were over 23,000 of those cubic feet.. The 2020 total represented a 34% increase from the year before, a 49% increase over five years and a 75% increase over 10 years. Here Are the Best Long Range Rifles 15. This is not for hunting purposes, and the hit isnt consistently repeatable yet. The sun had just set and it was pretty dark looking through my Nightforce ATACR scope fitted with a Charlie Tarac Macro Charlie optical prism. On September 13, 2022, the group headed out to cattle country near Pinedale, Wyoming for the big day. Web ksltv.com jackson, wyo. Scott Austin and Shepard Humphries led the team from Nomad Rifleman, a shooting range and instruction center based in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. A big thanks to our spotting team members for these photos! At the time of his death, Paul Murdaugh was awaiting trial in connection with a deadly 2019 boating accident. Our calculation for spindrift was 93.80 right) We did not take into account the Coriolis, as much of that is lost in the weeds with respect to wind (6-9 mph), temperature rising (constantly adjusting elevation) and time of flight. 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum. Sig Cross Rifle 14. The rifle, chambered in .416 Barrett, comprised custom . This adventure took over 20 months of dreaming and 1,500+ focused man-hours of studying, building and testing a never-before-built system of rifle, ammo, optics, and gear; bunkers and ballistics study and the subsequent custom builds; extensive terrain scouting at various ranches in four states; months of practical testing to get to the point that the bullet even landed on the hillside, much less the target. The previous record of 4 miles set in 2020 was defeated by a 4.4-mile target hit in the high desert of western Wyoming. . It's got a durable design and is easy to break down into component pieces. But the complexity of the project and the difficulty of procuring custom parts from international suppliers pushed back that deadline, and the rifle wasnt completed until May of 2022. Christensen Mesa FFT "Flash Forged Technology" is a light-weight rifle chambered in nine different calibers, the lightest of which tip the scales at 5.5 pounds. The disgraced lawyer was found guilty in the 2021 murders of his wife and youngest son. March 2, 2023, 5:07 PM PST. Phillips said once current COVID-19. This is the longest marksmanship record in competitive shooting. The rifle bucks, and the process starts all . Ruger's rimfire semi-auto has an 18.5 " barrel length and splits into 2 subassemblies. by Kyle Mizokami Here's What You Need to. The team had to shoot for about five hours that day, but years of preparation went into their success. The rifle, with customized parts and accessories from Canada, New Zealand, Arkansas, South Dakota and elsewhere, was assembled in Idaho by S&S Sporting in Driggs, Idaho. | Chassis is a Cadex Dual Strike from Canada. Alex Murdaugh was also charged with misappropriating settlement funds in the death of his former housekeeper, Gloria Satterfield, who died in the Murdaugh family home after a falling accident in 2018. With so many moving parts and unpredictable variables, its easy to see why it took 69 shots to hit the target. He also said he entered a rehab facility. If they hit a rock that is 4 feet in diameter, they get more field credibility., These types of shots are just for fun explained Shepard. This was the most challenging, difficult, frustrating, time-consuming and yet rewarding professional project I have ever undertaken, said Shepard Humphries. Were saying we went out, just having fun, and tried to hit a target a long way away.. By the time the bullet reached the target, it had slowed down to 689 feet-per-second and didnt produce a consistent dust signature. [Editors note: Thats about 90 feet of wind drift at 4,134 yards.] I'd consider a base of: 300 win mag. Target was 10 feet wide, 7 feet 8 inches tall. Murdaugh was found guilty in the 2021 murders of his wife and youngest son. Visual spotting would allow a spotter to pinpoint an impact to within a square inch, but imagine closing your eyes while sitting in a field and listening for a pebble that is tossed and landed within 30 feet of you. Ruger Hawkeye Long Range Target Rifle 12. After several hours of number crunching and aim adjusting later, their 69th shot hit the bullseye. Summer of 2021 turned out to be wishful thinking; the rifle was finally completed in May of 2022. It is a totally surreal feeling.. When asked about what he did after he was heard at the kennel in a video on Paul's phone, Murdaugh said "I got out of there," according to Waters. Ryan Cheney To see beyond four miles, they used a Vortex Razor 6-3656 FFP scope with an EBR-7D MOA reticle. Amateur shooters struggle to comprehend the training and technology required to achieve such a shot and falsely assume they too could hit the target by simply firing enough rounds. Extreme Long Range competitive shooter Ryan Cheney recently made the record booksby landing a shot on target 2.35 miles downrange. Even so, I was holding 10 mils over the target, for a total of 78 mils of elevation. It only added to the legend of the rifle's legendary shot. Henry Single Shot Rifle: Best Single Shot Rifle for the Money. 01:37. But while we're talking about long-range shooting, lets discuss exactly how much long-distance capability you'll need from your rifle. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service. Photo from forward spotting team. They look forward to sharing their story to help other folks beat their record! Together, weve spent over 1500 hours in research, highs and lows, blood, sweat, excitement and tears, with dozens of amazingly gifted people and businesses personally invested in the goal, Austin said. Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. When we initially requested for them to build the barrel they notified us that it would take at least 12 months, as there were others in line before our order. The 350 MOA mount was custom built by S&S Sporting in Idaho. The day started off late. The MAUSER 98 125th Anniversary Limited-Edition Series, FIRST LOOK: The Glock 45 Pistol Arrives With Front Slide Serrations, The Primary Arms Optics Gen IV SLx 1-6x24mm SFP Rifle Scope, 1876 Winchester: The Rifle of Texas Ranger James B. Gillett, [VIDEO] Here Is The Marlin 45-70 1895 SBL By Ruger Firearms. I had some elevation issues with target six because of the 17 to 26 mph 4:30 wind. We've rounded out the top 6 holiday decor trends for 2022 so you can be ahead of the game before you start shopping. Springfield Armory Model 2020 Waypoint This is a brand-new family of rifles for Springfield Armory, and it's making some big promiseswell, small promises in the form of a .75-MOA guarantee. Defense team speaks after Alex Murdaugh sentenced to life in prison for double murder, March 3, 2023. Father paralyzed by rare, temporary condition, Mother of man shot and killed by officers has history with Farmington police, Police release timeline of events in Canyon View High gun threat, assault, Top 7 Reasons to Add a Production Printer to Your Business, History of Lighting Design | Over 25 Years of Providing Utah With the Latest Trends and Styles, Why Every Business Needs a Structured Cabling System, How to Create Strong Passwords You Can Actually Remember, Top 5 Reasons You May Want to Consider Apartment Life Over Owning a Home. In this kind of shooting, a spotter sees an impact and then tells the coach, who does the data crunching, and advises the shooter how to adjust before taking the next shot. Luckily, Steve Ream and Rusty Newton worked together to spot for me, and brought me onto the plate to make a fourth-round impact. "This jury had to think he was a despicable human being and not to be believed. Unnamed (Australia), 2021, 3,079 . At the range though, youll need a box or two of the same ammunition, a fresh target, a Sign in to access your profile, save content and more. Thats a somewhat difficult question to answer as a lot of skill, engineering, and prep workmore than 1,500 hours, according to Humphrieswent into the feat, which required an element of favorable probability (aka luck) to come to pass. The three of them considered a number of solutions, and Shepard settled on what he thinks might be(?) On June 7, 2021, Alex Murdaugh's wife Maggie and son Paul were found shot dead near the dog kennels at the family's estate. Confirmed hit! Wanting to be extra-sure that their eyes were not deceiving them, Lynn radioed again and said We are going to go confirm now hang tight!, All five spotters approached the target with Mick in the lead, and the fresh bullet penetration was officially confirmed. For other use of these World Record Extreme Long Range Shot images, please contact us. There were other technical issues like spin drift, the Coriolis effect and, of course, Murphys law. A Syracuse man is facing criminal charges after a 14-year-old boy he is accused of stealing from tracked him down on social media. Together with a group of friends they spent several hours launching bullets downrange before connecting on their 69th shot, according to a release on Nomad Riflemans website. An 80-inch circle was drawn on the target which would be equivalent to hitting a 1 inch circle at 100 yards. Published Sep 20, 2022 4:04 PM EDT. The Christensen Arms Mesa Long Range was designed for dedicated precision shooters and long range hunters. Less than two weeks after the shooting, Alex Murdaugh surrendered to police on charges of insurance fraud, conspiracy to commit insurance fraud and filing a false police report. With all the advancements in ballistics technology what used to be the benchmark for a long shot1,000 yardsis downright pedestrian these days. The scope was held in place with a double set of. In 2020, they guided a client to set the Wyoming state record for longest hit on a target at a whopping 3.06 miles! Long range shooting is a collective term for shooting disciplines where the distance to target is significant enough that shooter has to put effort into calculating various ballistic factors, especially in regards to the deviating effects of gravity and wind.While shooting at shorter ranges, a shooter only has to slightly adjust the sights to compensate for limited bullet drop at most, but . . "40 years from now when Im an old man, I hope to spectate an ELR event and watch some whippersnapper that probably isnt even born yet, go 3/3 cold at 4100 yds," he wrote. Shepard learned to weld and built prototype after prototype until they found the correct design. Team Global Precision Group Sets New World Record With 3.4 Mile Shot By Waheed UK 07 The Team Global Precision Group has set a new world record for the longest rifle shot at 6012 yards (3.4 miles). Knowing that they could not provide the barrel in our time frame he still took the time. The target they shot at was constructed of thin sheet metal and measured 10 feet wide by 7.6 feet tall. When we initially requested for them to build the barrel they notified us that it would take at least 12 months, as there were others in line before our order. ! Spotters gratefully refocused and the call went out to the shooters location: WE HAVE OUR FIRST HIT! Just before noon, with ominous clouds building on the horizon, Scott made the wind and elevation call of 1,092 MOA up and 17 MOA left. There are many benefits of renting that can be overshadowed by the allure of buying a home. That said, a 1 mph increase in wind would cause 26 feet more bullet drift, according to Humphries.). Making an accurate wind call was virtually impossible, and spotting the bullet impact also presented a challenge. So it was about character, wasn't about motive," he said. Scott Austin and Shepard Humphries led the team from Nomad Rifleman, a shooting range and instruction center based in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. He was nicknamed the Devil of Ramadi by terrified Iraqi insurgents Credit: East2west News. Special thanks to Frank Green from Bartlien Barrels. After setting the Wyoming state record of 3.06 miles in 2020, Scott Austin and Shepard Humphries gathered a team of extreme-long-range enthusiasts to tackle the world record. They also want to make clear that their team made it all possible. Not only was their hit within the one MOA 40-inch radius, it was at 3 inch to the left of the dead center of the bullseye! However, a shot like this cannot be achieved with any ordinary rifle and requires a custom-made, one-of-a-kind precision rifle. The marksmanship feat was orchestrated by Scott Austin and Shepard Humphries, who run Nomad Rifleman, a long-range shooting school out of Jackson Hole, Wyoming. If it had been an absolutely dead-calm day it definitely would be one more variable to try to address. Shepard doubted the probability would be high enough to be workable. Scott and Shepard both have a passion for shooting rifles at long ranges. In fact, Humphries said that 90 percent of the misses during their shooting gave no visual signature at alleven with the spotters placed within the impact zone. Harpootlian said the defense will file an appeal in 10 days. In this new system, spotters get as close as safely possible to the target and listen for thumps and triangulate the sounds. We will only ask you for information necessary to make the purchase process faster and easier. The group, which was led by scott austin and shepard humphries of nomad rifleman based in jackson hole,. But even when shooting a beast like the .416 Barrett, spotting impacts becomes difficult at 4.4 miles. The Longest Competition Rifle Shot Ever | Outdoor Life Guns Rifles At 2.35 Miles, This Is The Longest Rifle Shot Ever Recorded In Competition The story behind Ryan Cheney's record 4,134-yard shot By John B. This speaks volumes about their integrity. In a short time you can create new ones in seconds. After various testing sessions. Scott designed and built the shooting platform. Bunkers? Though it's primarily a hunting round, the 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum will also work for shooting long-range targets. is the second-longest in history. Christensen Arms Modern Precision Rifle 7. Qian Yang and Haoran Yang (China) - 633.2 at Tokyo 2020 Olympics (July 27, 2021) During the debut of the mixed team events at the Summer Games, Qian Yang and Haoran Yang set the Olympic record and the world record in the 10m air rifle by scoring 633.2. (Image credit: Activision) The LW3 Tundra used to be terrible, but following recent updates, it now rivals the HDR in more ways than one. Longest Rifle Shot 2021. The white rectangular target measured 10 feet wide and seven feet, eight inches tallor about 1.7 MOA. The bullet then takes a full 17 seconds to hit the target after being fired. See the full press release, additional information and images for your use at: https://nomadrifleman.com/world-record-shot/, Vortex Razor 6-3556 FFP scope with EBR-7D MOA reticle. Luckily, I hit it on the fifth and final attempt to be able to engage the bonus target 3,592 yards. The resulting wrongful death lawsuit filed against Alex Murdaugh by Beach's family, who alleged he allowed his underage son to drive under the influence, was one factor in bringing years of alleged theft from his law firm and clients to light. From Sig: The P320MAX is a 9mm striker-fired pistol optimized for competition at the highest levels, specifically in the Carry Optics division. Web r february 19, 2021 topic: That all said, prs shooters are seriously good, and for proof of that, just consider the longest rifle shot ever made in. Bunkers? This was accomplished in 2021 by Ryan Cheney in Conway Springs, Kansas. New world record set for farthest long-range rifle shot. While holding the longest documented shot in history, Phillips said the team is looking to continue pushing the envelope and keep pushing its record further. Learn how you can create strong passwords that are actually easy to remember! Ryan Cheney behind the rifle he used to set a record 4,137-yard shot in competition. It was also placed at a steep angle so it would be more in line with the fall of the bullet as it came back to earth. John B. Web r february 19, 2021 topic: Unnamed (australia), 2021, 3,079 yards; Web imagine thisbut like, way, way, way further away. Lynn, even closer to the target, was also directly under the flight path of the bullet. It wasnt dust or rocks kicking up from a bullet landing nearby, as seen from prior nearby impacts; sure enough, the steel had a hole punched right through it! The team took 69 shots the day they set the record, and their final shot miraculously hit the eight-inch center circle. Here are five reasons why renting might be right for you. The other heavy rifles are too inaccurate I'm afraid. Cheney, 41, made his record shot at the Spearpoint Ranch in Barnard, Kansas, on March 27, stretching out 4,134 yards to hit a piece of 6-foot-squared steel. 7. Family of man shot by police release statement, call it 'brutal murder', UPDATE: Man killed after police shoot into parked car in Farmington, Woman killed in Juab County crash with semi, Utah driver license now available on mobile devices - KSLTV.com, Fishermen find tattooed arm of missing man inside shark, Utah driver license now available on mobile devices, 14-year-old uses social media to track down man accused of robbing him. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service. Aside from the three-man crew, Team Global Precision Group rocked some serious gear, including a Garmin 701, Kestrel 5700, Labrador chronograph and Applied Ballistics Analytics. Spindrift [where the bullet angles in the direction of its spin] and the Coriolis effect [the rotation of the earth, by which the target shifts position while the bullet is in flight] also play a role at that distance. Luck isnt the right word; perhaps probability is a better word. SHOT Show 2020: Volquartsen Summit Rifle in .17 WSM Brownells, Inc. 336K subscribers Subscribe 251 17K views 2 years ago Steve Ostrem sets aside his Brownells Gun Tech hat this week to be our. This legendary Marine sniper made the Corps' longest known kill shot more than 50 years ago with a machine gun Ryan Pickrell Mar 17, 2021, 4:00 PM Carlos Hathcock taking aim in Vietnam.. a brand new concept in ELR. Subscribe to OL+ for our best feature stories and photography. Target at an angle for incoming bullet descending at 48 degrees. About 30 minutes later, after the other shooters had cycled through, I was able to get back on my gun and try for the long plate. When you think about the variables the bullet encounters with wind alone over 4.4 miles you can see where striking the targetat least with todays technologyinvolves probability and chance. During the American SHOT SHOW 2019, I shot this rifle for test at 1000 yards. Remington 700 5R 10. Check. The worlds farthest long-range rifle shot was fired Tuesday, surpassing the previous record by nearly half a mile. Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. For more information, visitglobalprecisiongroupllc.com. You can mount the scope yourself and use a laser bore-sighter to get the reticle near where it needs to be. The standard variant of the rifle has a dark . The names of each ammunition from left to right are CCI Standard Velocity (lead-based), Winchester Super X (lead-based), CCI Stinger (lead-based), and CCI Copper-22 (lead-free) Table 1. In this new system, spotters get as close as safely possible to the target and listen for thumps and triangulate the sounds. Confirmed! The first four shots, my spotters and I saw the misses as I got closer and closer to hitting the plate. This isnt the kind of thing where you buy a new rifle and some ammo right off of the gun store shelf and go get lucky, said Shepard. 8 of the Hottest New Hunting Cartridges for 2021 and Beyond, Time of flight: 9.4 seconds to 4,137 yards. The temperature outside and within the barrel, the speed and direction of the wind at various distances between the shooter and the target, especially at max ordinate above 2,500 feet, will not ever be the same again. Please enter your email address. Steel bunkers would need to be constructed, but how thick should the steel be? Wind was their biggest enemy on the day of the shoot, Humphries said. After various testing sessions, they determined the correct thickness of steel. Alex Murdaugh has admitted to stealing money from clients. Dead at 3,871 Yards: The Story of History's Longest Sniper Kill Shot The shot was more than a thousand yards farther than the previous world record. Weve seen an uptick in the ability of shooters in competition to get hits within the framework of these matches, where you have a handful of attempts (usually three to five) under a time constraint to hit steel targets at distances that just a few years back would be considered unimaginable. A team of long-range shooting experts in Wyoming set what appears to be the new world record for the longest rifle shot ever completed: 7,774 yards or 4.4 miles. Team Global Precision Group pulled off a remarkable shooting feat recently. Here's how the news developed. Ryan Cheney, a 41-year-old competitive ELR shooter from Conway Springs, Kansas, just made a couple of those shots that are going to be tough to top. Defense attorney Jim Griffin said Alex Murdaugh's surviving son, Buster, speaking on his fathers behalf at Friday's sentencing hearing would not have made a difference in the sentence, and only would have put Buster through more trauma. Next came the problem of keeping spotters safe from bullets. They joke that, Those who can do. Maybe the people who beat our record and the other smart cookies in the ELR world will be able to make first round hits at these distances in the years to come, but at this point, it isnt a sure thing..